Megasquirt in my 16v by JonnyPhenomenon

it would be nice if they came in black, ya know? 

so Ive revised my design a bit more. since the fuel filter is so small, Ive decided to just thread it right into the FPR and simplify my second design even more. provided that it fits that is...

10-11-2008

You might very well be right, but since this is a two inlet single outlet FPR, the two inlets have got to be directly connected together or else the FPR would need two seperate regulating valves to operate. 

I am quite certain this way will work, but then again I dont have the fpr in hand so I cant be 100% sure till then.

10-13-2008

the parts all came in today, and I am sticking with my theory. the two "in" fittings on the FPR are directly connected. you can see right through the thing. so logically it would be like putting a high flowing T between the filter and the FPR, with a lot less fittings. 

so this setup should be simple, yet effective. 

of course, I cant try it out because the stupid filter didnt come with any O rings. now I have to place yet another order or try to find some locally. anyone know if Napa carries Viton o-rings?

thanks for the tip. Im gonna swing by napa with the fittings and one of the O-rings I did get to see if I can get a match. if not, then Ill consider these other sources. 

with the price of gas tho, it would make more sense for me to just get them online. 

edit: I just bought a set on ebay. $7.50 for ten shipped.  now I dont even have to leave the house 

ahh crap. I just realised I dont have a friggin air intake tube and filter. 

what are most people using for this setup?

10-20-2008

megasquirt installation begins TONIGHT!

I got almost everything I need. gonna get started on tearing everything apart in a few minutes. wish me luck!

10-21-2008

well, I have decided to pretty much rewire the entire engine bay.

its been a long time coming, alot of the old wiring was not in the best shape. a lot of the 'harness tubing' was cracked and showing the wires within, and bunch of the wiring was brittle and cracked in places where it got heat and exposed to oils and the like. so I pulled most of the harness out tonight and I am going to work on cleaning it up some. this will also enable me to run the wiring where I want it to be, and hopefully allow me to hide some of it too. 

- of course I will need to respray my engine bay now that all that CIS crap is out of there...

here are some pics. 

I pulled the fusebox... - I have to admit, this took balls. I actually had second thoughts about wether that would be a tragedy or not. but then I thought "I can solve a 12 sided rubiks cube, I think I can handle this. besides, I got the bentley.  

some wiring I removed. (between the fusebox and the ecu. 

my injectors were a nightmare to get out. I dont have the proper tool, and the o rings were totally rock hard and would NOT come out. I ended up unscrewing all the injector lines from the injectors with the injectors still in the head, and then figuring out some way to get them out after. (using a hammer)

thats all for now. Im falling asleep in my chair.

thanks for all the good advice. sorry I didnt follow any of it. 

I'm just going to clean up the engine bay, make a new wiring harness and hook it all up. I'll make it go. you watch 

did any of you guys hook MS up on a 16v before? 

any idea how to interface the knock box with MS?

10-22-2008

interesting... I had read somewhere that someone was making a knock senser control box to interface with MS, but I was thinking it might be done with the stock box.

thanks Tony, thats exactly what I was looking for. 

10-24-2008

placed an oder for a bunch of wiring supplies to build the new harness. lots of various sized heat shrink, plus an assortment of connectors. I am trying to track down a good source for all of the various connectors used, like for the injectors, and all the other plugs just like them. I may just clean up the ones I have, but since I am rewiring everything, Ill need to get all new pins for them. 

so basically Im looking for new pins....

hmm... I wasnt planning on tapping into the fusebox much, if any at all. finding the proper pins for a plug is a pain in the ass.  

first you have to find out who makes the connector, and what model it is. then you can start looking for pins for it. 

so since its hard to find out who makes the connector, and even harder to find the specific model, trying figure out what pins to get for it is tough.

I do think Ive nailed down the pins for the injector connectors, and those are the same pins used in a lot of places under the hood. I'll post more about that as soon as they arrive and I make sure they are correct. 

just got a package in the mail today from McMaster.com. about 9 miles of assorted heat shrink tubing and a metric "butload" of butt splice connectors. I wont use nearly that many, but it will be nice to have when I need it.

this is a bit off topic, but does anyone know the part number on a manual adjusting clutch table that will be shorter than the one I have here?

this ones way too long, and the auto adjusters got a ton of strain on it thanks to the improper length.

10-26-2008

so after doing some digging, I figured some things out.

these connectors are made by Tyco Electronics. they are called "Junior Timer Housings (with locking spring and seal)".

these are 1.09 at mouser.com, and the pins themselves are about 22 cents each. 

the tyco part numbers for the various items and colors are as follows:

for the two position(pins) plugs, 

827551-1 = white

827551-2 = grey

827551-3 = black (it appears that mouser only carries these in black)

827551-4 = brown

827551-5 = blue

827551-6 = green

827551-8 = yellow

the three position ones are only 2$ each from here (mouser doesn't seem to carry these)

828748-1 = white http://www.onlinecomponents.co...748-1/

828748-3 = black http://www.onlinecomponents.com/product/2416608/

the pins

http://www.mouser.com/Search/P...3d%3d

there are some variations of these plugs, but if you just stick to what I have listed here, you will be good to go.

10-29-2008

thanks for the tip Peterline. they have a decent selection of connectors, its too bad they dont have any of the stock rocco connectors tho. 

so with the thought of this crazy wiring nightmare looming over me, I caved and bought the MegaSquirt relay board kit from DIYAutotune.com

I was planning on wiring it all into my fusebox, but as I contemplated my strategy for installing all this stuff, I determined it would be easiest if I could do it in stages. 

I also placed an order for a bunch of connectors and pins from mouser.com. dont know if I mentioned that already... 

progress is being made... just realy really slowly.

2-15-2009

UPDATE:

its been a long time since I have worked on the rocco. its been a pretty cold winter, and I havent had the motovation to get out there and freeze my self to death ripping apart a car. 

but I finally got some kerosene for my turbo heater, and managed to get my garage door chippedf out of the ice it was frozen into so I could get some work done today. I had a friend help me get today, an we got the car up on jack stands and proceded to make serious progress.

first I drained the fluids, pulled the radiator and all the AC bits, althernator, power steering pump, transmssion, and all sorts of hoses, wiring, and so on. 

then we pulled out the trans, which I had to use a dremel to hack the head off a bolt that had a nice rounded head on it.  

after the bolt was cut off, the trans popped right out without any fight. 

Next thing to go was the motor, that also came out without any fuss. it helped that I spenty extqa time moving all the parts that would get in the way of it on the way out. 

since I dont have an engine hoist, I had to drop the motor down and slide it out under the front cross member. 

now that the motor is out, I can start swapping over parts to the new block. 

here are a few pics: 

Question: I just got the stock injector "cups" out of the head, and under each of these is a little tube that sits down in the head. three of them broke off and left the tube in the hole. only ONE of them actually came out with the injector bung. 

my question is wether I should get new ones or if I should remove them, since the new injectors dont work the same way as the old ones...

does anyone have any experience with this?

these are the rubes I speak of. along with the part number, and a link to them on worldimpex.

035-133-554 

http://www.worldimpex.com/part....html

thanks for the prompt reply. I just did some digging and had come to that conclusion as well. 

I got the g60 injector cups from GAP a while back so I am set. I have tomorrow off but I am heading up to my parents house for the day. My father is working on a 58 vette and I hope to help out a little 

2-17-2008

yeah, no kidding. I spent the day at my folks house yesterday in my dads heated shop. I would KILL for a shop like that. (so you all better watch out.)  

I was helping him prep a 1958 corvette for paint. of course, he only let me sand the door jams so if I screwed up I wouldnt hurt anything. *laugh*

hes like Mr Miagi; he gives me a really crappy job to do, then he sprays over it and makes me do it again and again. Who would have thought that this endless back and forth motion would be good for something other than self gratification?  

edit for page pic:

2-20-2009

we can pretend its the same car if you like. 

back on topic tho, I just ordered another 200$ from GermanAutoparts.com. I hope they appreciate my business! 

I ordered a new head gasket set, new motor mounts, new clutch cable, some assorted nuts and bolts, and I ordered a Ton of new hose clamps. 

did you guys know that VW stock hose clamps are color coded? its true!

I measured the stock spring type hose clamps when they were fully constricted with no hose in them, and these are the sizes of each. (in mm) and the quantity I would need of each to replace all my stock clamps.

12x blue 22mm 

2x green 26mm

4x brown 30mm

5x white 36mm

Germanautoparts.com has a large selection of hose clamps sized from 8mm to 75mm. I used tne 22-32mm size for the blues, the 26-38mm for both the greens and the browns, and the 32-44mm size for the whites. I got a couple smaller ones for coolant return hoses and the like as well. that should replace all those annoying spring clip jobbies with nice looking matching screw type clamps. 

2-21-2009

does anyone know what speedometer cable is compatable with the rocco if I want to delete the ox2 mileage counter? I want to get rid of that ugly useless box.

gap doesnt li9st anything for the rocco, but the one they list for the Golf looks like it would work. I just dont want anything too long, or two short..ya know?

2-23-2009

that is pure genious!

too bad they suck so bad, and are ugly..

you wouldnt happen to have any old CV axles laying around would you?

they dont have to be rocco specific. mk2 golf and jetta ones work. all I need is the outer jacket and stub axle.

2-24-2009

BOOooO! that sucks. 

I threw out a pile of them this summer because they were taking up space. 

the metal scavengers stached them up like they were 20$ bills.. 

went up to my dads place today to use his sand blasting cabinet. blasted my valve cover and intake manifold, and another intake manifold with a passenger side intake port. I cant decide which side Ill put the intake... there is a lot more room in front of the strut tower on the passenger side, but there is barely any room between the strut tower and the timing belt. I dont want it to rub on anything. 

on the other hand, if I keep it on the drivers side, then it will block access to all the stuff over there. which is one of the things I hate about the stock arrangement...

2-27-2009

anyone know where I can get some good engine dressup stuff? billet and or chrome stuff. 

that jcaps site has some stuff, but nothing really for sciroccos..

2-28-2009

I just spent 240$ on a coolant expansion tank and a power steering reservoir. 

I would have liked to have waited till I had some other important stuff purchased, but I will need these in hand when we shave the engine bay since Ill need to make mounting points for them before we paint.

240 might seem expensive for two alluminum tanks, but I assure you it could have been a lot worse.. I was looking for a replacement for the stock bottle that I would rub some polish on to brighten up the engine bay. but nothing that would look too out of place like alot of the street rod stuff that is out there. 

still, I dont know why this stuff is so expensive....

3-13-2009

So I placed an order for ARP head studs(undercut) last night from MJMAutoHaus.com. best price I have seen anywhere at only 109 shipped. it would be really nice if arp hardware didnt cost quite so much, but what can you do, right?

props to MJM for the lowest price:

I hope they send me some stickers.  

Next things to buy, the battery relocation kit from Summit Racing(~170$):

then I need to get a Bahn Brenner fuel rail..

the list goes on and on and on.......

3-31-2009

thanks. I have been working on the body in another thread (see signature) getting it all repainted and ready for the pretty new motor going in. I got my head studs in drop shipped right from ARM (no mjm stickers tho, which is too bad for them.  )

I have about 350$ of stuff that I KNOW I need to buy before this will be finished, and I dont have that much right now.  

getting this finished in time for dustoff is going to be a real challenge.

anyway, its all repainted and the car was dropped off this morning at home, so the rebuild process begins now. 

heres some color:

4-23-2009

Okay! I have been working on the stupid car constantly over the past 3+ weeks. I even took this entire week off of work to try and finish it up in time to make it to dust off down in Mass. I have made Some progress....

actually, I have made a lot of progress. the motor is all installed, and almost all wired up for testing Megasquirt. using the relay board definitely has its advantages here, where I can hook it all up and get it working, and then install it in the car and rRE-wire it, making my wiring nice and tidy and well hidden.

things left to do:

make the relay board to MS cable

make a battery hold down thing for my rear mounted battery.

Battery terminals..

find one more hose that goes between the rad and the engine. I swear I had it just yesterday...

add fluids, oil, power steering, brake fluids... 

bleed the brake lines.  

get the motor to run...

this is going to be a crazy next two days... If I were taking bets, I would say I wont be ready for ust off. at this point I am trying to decide what things will just have to be ignored... for instance, I want to relocate my heater control valve to be inside the cabin, so I dont have an ugly valve and cable running through the bay, but that will have to wait. in the mean time I will need to get out of the car and pop the hood to turn the heat on.  but I can fix that Next week. 

I found out that the back of the fuse box has a letter next to each of the plugs, and each pin in each plug receptacle is clearly numbered in a very specific order. when you compare it to the wiring diagrams in the bentley, it makes it easy to find any pin you want 

4-24-2009

OK. hitting a bit of a wall here. I am getting a tach signal from the hall thanks to a pull up resistor, but my fuel pump doesnt seem to want to start off the relay. I can jumper it tho, but then it runs non stop.

when is the fuel pump relay supposed to fire?

just hooked a timing light up to it and it seems I am not getting spark.

OK. progress. my power lead to the coil came unplugged so it wasnt getting juice. now I am getting spark, but it is irregular. I have my dwell set to 3.1, and I beleive I am supposed to increase it if I am getting misfires...

got a sputter out of it once. not sure if that was just a fluke or what. but yeah, my exhaust manifold is leaking.

got it running. the ignition needed to be set to trigger on falling edge instead of rising edge. got lucky that that was pretty much the first thing I tried.

now it is struggling to idle. if I turn the dizzy just right it will stay running under its own power, and I have the throttle opened up just a tiny bit. 

I have a problem with my fuel pump tho. the relay board isnt telling it to run. I have to jumper across the relay socket to get the pump to run, and then it runs all the time.

did I miss a setting somewhere that tells the MS to tell the relay board to pump the fuel?

I hooked my Jimstim up to my ms ecu and played with it for a bit. my fuel pump LED is not lighting up. I checked my insulated transistor and it has no continuity.

4-25-2009

ahh crap. I stayed up till 5am working on it. just doing the wiring harness.  

at least when I get up tomorrow I should be able to start it from inside the car. heh.

anyone know why the fuel pump isnt coming on when MS is running?

I wish there was a way to tell MS to do a fuel pump test...

well, I got it running. I still cant get the fuel pump to work so I have installed a manual switch. not the best way to do it, I know but...

I cant find any advice on how to fix this. I dont believe I fried it, and all my soldering work is good. I cant seem to figure out what parts of the board operate the fuel pump.

does anyone have some advice on the subject?

thanks for the tip! now that you linked me to it, I seem to have a vague recollection of seeing it some where.

I hooked up a meter to test the fuel pump circuit, and everything checked out OK. then I hooked the unit up to my other PC and uploaded the older software, and wouldnt you know it, the fuel pump LED lit right up!

I think the 2.88 software I was running on it is messed up. Im going to try to start from scratch with the 2.6 software and see where that gets me. I did find some specs on the injectors I am using tho. the trick was to search for "bosch injector flow rates" on google.

here is a couple of the sites I found:

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

http://www.usrallyteam.com/con....html

http://www.turbo-conversion.co...ts/65

Note: the part number on these injectors was 0280156061 on one side and 06A9060318 on the other. the 06A-906-031-8A is the vw part number and 0-280-156-061 is the bosch PN. 

so basically, these look like they will spray 316-321 cc's a minute at 3 bar. (43.5 psi). that is ~30.15 lbs/hr.

that was what I was reading too with the 2.6 software. I dont know why I felt compelled to go with the latest software..

this might seem like a no brainer, but what "air fuel ratio" should I put in the required fuel calculator afr box in megatune? 14.7?

OK. I have no idea what is going on. I am on zero sleep and have a ton of distraction,s but it looks like my ecu is STILL using 2.88 code, and not 2.6 like I thought. I cant remember how to reflash it with older code, and my wife is pissed because I havent spent any time with her - at all - in the past two months. 

I have to take a break from all this to save my marriage. 

OK... now another question. can you increase the ammount of time that the ecu primes the pump when you turn the key to ON?

coolant temp sensor...

trying to generate a sensor table for the stock 2 pin coolant sensor. I am using the chart from 5-43 in the bentley, but it doesnt say what the bias resistor value is... anyone know what to put here? I left it zero and it didnt complain. I am on the stim right now trying to configure as much as I can.

EDIT: I figured out what the bias resistor is. its a resistor on the MS ecu. the default is 2.49k and it can be replaced with a different one for the different values of the sensor you are using. I will post more about it when I have time. 

on the left, the default values for the GM sensor. on the right, the 3 point calibration following the Bentley (5-48), with a 0 value bias resistor. This needs to be 2490 since that is the value of the resistors r4 and r7 on the board. it looks liek I could change these to 2.2k resistors and then I wont have to muck about with recalibrating.. 

and here is the sensor chart/graph from another - perfectly legal -source.... 

thats odd.. that option is grayed out for me.

Oh. I see why.

4-27-2009

okay. no biggie, now that it is actually priming properly, it seems to be able to get my FPR up to the 3bat I have it set to in the two seconds it pumps.

now I am on to bigger and much more annoying problems.

I am trying to follow a hundred different instructional pages and I am having trouble making sense of it. I may actually have found a bug in megatune to be honest. but when I try to build maps using the built in tools, I get really weird things happening. 

its hard to explain, and I am really beat, but Ill at least say this for example: all my timings are way off. like for some reason it decided it wanted to sputter and blow fuel vapor out my intake.

I looked at the timings table and the figures were up in the hundreds. as far as I know, when idling, isnt the 16v motor supposed to be at 6 degrees before top dead center?

I dont even know what a good map is supposed to look like.

does aanyone have any maps they could send me to compare mine to?

4-27-2009

thanks for the tip. that worked. 

the bay looks like crap right now. Im using an old gti intake tube and an intake filter I found on the side of the road. no joke. it looks like it sat out in the rain for a while.  

I need to get a few more things before I take any updated pics.

had it running pretty good today, but then Tony left and it started to run like crap. so I went back to the map I had when Tony got there, and it also ran like crap. I dont know what happened. it seemed like it was doing pretty good.

Oh yeah, and that small oil leak has turned into a much bigger oil leak.

looks like Ill need - yet another - main seal, and Ill have to pull the crank out of one of my other motors. 

4-28-2009

found out where the big oil mess came from.  

I didnt tighten the oil-pump-drive-gear-cover-plug-retainer-piece bolt enough and it backed out from engine vibration. once I got the car out in the sun today I discovered the big mess of oil all over my brand new engine bay. 

had it running again today. I even drove it a few houses up the street and back without stalling. (barely)

its not running great, but I think it is getting there.

I spend some more time trying to get the stupid idle control valve to work.. I have THREE of the damned things. one with three pins, one with two pins in a "3 pin socket" (missing the middle pin) and another with just a two pin socket... I think the three pin one is jammed. it doesnt do anything when hooked up. the other 3 pin (minus 1) seems to respond to vasrying voltages quite well. if I give it 12v it opens all the way, 6v it opens half way. but no matter what settings I put into MS, they dont seem to make it work with any regularity. 

I will have to try hookup up the other 2 pin ISV tonight and see what I can do with that. 

the only reason I didnt go for a longer drive was that my brakes were REALLY spongy. I definitely need to bleed them again tonight.

4-29-2009

the verdict is still out on that one. wont know till I run it a bit to see if the oil clears off wether that surface is too far gone. altho I could just turn it down and polish it on the lathe a bit and get an upsized gasket. just because VW doesnt sell them doesnt mean they arent made. altho, if Im going to take it out, I may as well replace it with a nicer one.

maybe Ill try to knife edge it...  

So good news. after spending another hour bleeding the brakes, I started it up tonight without any problems. I shimmed open the throttle a tiny bit (1/32") and let it idle up to temp. then I drove it over to the mobile about a half mile away and filled her up with 91. as I was getting back in, a cop pulled up to the intersection from East ave and sat there at the light looking at me for a sec, then he pulled into the mobile right behind my car. I thought I was a gonner.

keep in now, I currently have No hood. No front bumper, No seats other than the drivers seat, a pile of tools and crap in the car and my muffler is mis aligned and slamming against my underbody making a hell of a racket. 

So I did the what any man would do. I prayed, then turned the key. the car started right up, with only a little sputter, but with plenty of rattling from the exhaust. and then I drove off before the cop could get out of his car.  I figured if he wanted me he would have to come and get me. I wasnt going to stick around and chat.  

oh yeah, I need to bleed the brakes AGAIN. they still feel like mush, only now when I really get onto them the car pulls to the right. 

that is progress at least... right?

OK so since most of you jerkoffs dont like to read, Ill oblidge you with some pics.

here is a couple pics of the air filter I found on the side of the road. - seriously.

I was in need of an air filter and this one magically appeared on the side of the road on trash pickup day. 

look at all this rust! it must have been left outside for a while.

and here is a pic of my daughter Valentine Echo, whom I havent seen a lot of lately because I am always out in the garage... I just want this to be over with so I can go spend some time with my kid. heh.

4-30-2009

up under the dash above the fuse box. there is TONS of room behind there. 

my fuel trail took a dump on me today again. the bracket that holds the BBM fuel rail in place just doesnt let you get the rail down in far enough to keep a good seal on the stock (small) 1.8t injectors. so I took it to the shop and milled off a tenth of an inch.

lucky for me I have access to a machine shop at work...

*laugh*

yeah I was really letting myself go there for a while. the last time I shaved it was just before we painted the engine bay. I said "Im not shaving my head again till this pig RUNS.

I shaved it sunday after I started it up on saturday night. 

5-1-2009

so.. does anyone have any advice on the best way to get this running well?

Im getting a lot of sputtering and major lean conditions at about 3000 rpms and up under load. I have made some changes to the VE tables but they dont seem to help. Im wondering if I might have something else going on..

I havent driven it at below 160f so I dont know. I think I may have not configured the req fuel right. I just redid it again for the 30.15lb/hr rating these injectors are supposed to be, and the req fuel went up. but since Im not connected to the ECU I will have to upload a new msq when I get home.

under load when driving. I can rev it up pretty good now. it still dives when I flick the throttle, but if I keep tapping on it rapidly it comes out of it. 

it pretty much leans out completely at 4k. when driving I cant get it to go any higher. but I may have figured out what was wrong with it... when I im-ported that stock 2.0 msq file, I assumed the fuel table and spark table came with it, but - was I supposed to download those separately? 

5-3-2009

OK. so I am not having any luck getting this thing tuned. Ive tried changing the ve table, the afr table, ignition, etc. I can get it to play nice right up to about 3500 and it effectively hits a wall at 3800rpms.

the symptoms are that when I give it gas, either fast or slowly, it starts to sputter and miss at around 3500 and on. 

I havent ruled out a hardware malfunction, like a bad coil or bad chip on the MS ecu, but I am hoping its just a configuration issue and someone might be able to help me.

So Im going to attach some screen grabs of my tables and contour maps, in hopes that someone might be able to give me some insight to what I might be missing.

for starters, here are a few shots of my settings. - some might not be important - 

First, my current msq file: http://www.angrymods.com/proje...3.msq

General

Idle control set to none

Injector characteristics

EGO control, calibrated for the Innovate LC-1 default 0.5-5v

automatic mixture control disabled

ignition options (no trigger wheel)

Dwell settings, 3.1ms with accelleration compensation of 1ms

no knock stuff..

VE table (or grab the vex)

ve contour map

AFR table, (download)

afr contour map

Spark advance table, (vex)

Contour map.

MAT based timing retard

My wife needs me to pay attention to our daughter, so thats all for now..

5-4-2009

my AFR was saying it was really lean. maybe it was so rich it was missing and claiming to be lean. I got a new VE table and timing table from vw_nut and I am trying those today, and Ive got some timing issues to work out as well. Ill keep you posted.

Bingo. I think that is what was happening. I made some adjustments this morning and it appears to have paid off very well. I followed a tip from g60peru's thread here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2862011 where he said how to dial in the distributor.

then I changed my ignition options to be just like g60perus

you may notice that I had a maximum spark duration of 25 ms before. i dont know why. 2ms seems to be working quite well.  

also, vw-nut sent me some other VE maps and timing maps and I think that really helped out a ton. 

it is running a bit rich, and if I come to a quick stop the rapid closed throttle decelleration will cause it to die. if I let the throttle out really slow it will stay alive, but if it starts to die I have to tap-tap-tap on the throttle to bring it back from a stuttering death. 

I took a couple logs of a trip accross the turnpike to auburn and back. they are almost a meg each, and I'll attach my current msq file for reference.

first the msq.http://www.angrymods.com/projects/megasquirt/settings/tpike.msq

now the first log. I started in the park and ride just before the lewiston on ramp. as I was waiting to pull out it stalled on me, you can see that a few seconds into the log.  I brought it up to speed fairly quick and then I cruised the couple miles to auburn at 75 mph in 5th. slowing down for road construction and then the off ramp, a stop light, and then into the park and ride there.

(800k)

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...e.xls

the second log was pulling out of the park and ride, and driving right onto the on ramp without stopping. I allowed the rpms to get pretty high in a couple spots. didnt have any misses or stuttering. I brought it up to 75 for a bit, and then floored it in 5th to go from 75 to 90 before setting into a 75mph cruise the rest of the way to Lewiston. I live under a mile from the turnpike onramp, so I took it straight home. pulling into my driveway (stopping) it sputtered and died again. I really need to get that decelleration cut issue fixed 

(1meg)

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.xls

thanks to tony I have new ve and timing tables.

here is my ve table, but notice how differently my rpms settings are. from 900 to 8500.

my spark advance table doesnt uses the same rpm amounts.. 

its good right now. and with my current ride height I could even make it all the way around without bottoming out. 

but we better do it soon, since Im gonna lower it in a couple days.

in fact, I might take it for a little stroll tonight. I need to put some miles down on the new motor.

5-7-2009

I have made some changes to these maps in an attempt to get it running better at idle with no luck. I am expecting some new tables from Tony that should get me a little closer.

these tables were good, but without an ISV I stalled a lot.

thanks for the tip. Ill have to check that out as well.

I did seem to make a marked improvement to it tonight, it went from stalling all the time to idling magnificently in just a few clicks. what I did was set a column for 800 rpms and set the timing to 45 in the whole row. now it seems to run a lot better. I am sure there are more changes that will need to be made, but right now I have other things that need doing, so fine tuning will have to wait.

5-12-2009

OK. last night VW_nut and I did some logging and analysis and discovered a few thigns. I think my MAP sensor is reading all over the place and it might be causing some trouble all over the place, so I plan on putting some kind of pin hole filter or something on there today to clean that up some.

My 02 sensor is very jumpy. my 02 readings are all over the place and I dont know why. I have EGO correction all turned off so my 02 sensor should affect MS any yet, but the readouts on the o2 are very strange.

Also, I have a very strange "blip" that happens at 5100 RPMs. every time I floor it, and hold thoughout the full rpm rnage, at just shy of 5100 roms, my pulse width and duty cycles spike. with my pulse width over 80%, and duty cycle over 9.5. this happens in the very same place every time. 

here is a screenshot with everything included so you can see what I am talking about.. - click the link for the full sized picture

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...h.gif

note: I do not have EGO control, or autotune on. I I have turned off MAT timing retard as well. I was in second gear with the gas to the floor for this short section of log. I am attaching my msq files and the 1.8 meg log for anyone to look through. if anyone would be willing to have a look at it, I would be greatly appreciative.

Im going to get a filter on my MAP line in a few minutes and take some more logs. Ill post back shortly.

here is my current msq file.

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.msq

and my datalog (1.8 megs)

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.xls

OK... somehow I managed to lose a post I typed up a little while ago..

to summarize, it said: I installed a mig tip today and it helped to smooth out the map signal some. I didnt get any good WOT logs tho, but I did drive it around some. it seems to buck in a few places tho, so it looks liek I have some more tuning that I need to do before I get this thing really going. 

on another topic, but still MS related:

I am finally getting ready to put a knock sensor on it. looking at the KnockSense from Boris over at Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs http://www.viatrack.ca and came into a slight issue:

fist, I have a 2.0 9a block and I dont know what car it came out of. 

I have two good condition knock sensors with blue plugs. bosch part number 0261231036. I tried to find the motor these should go on but got some confusing into. it appears that this sensor is used on all sorts of motors, including a 99 1.8t, where they use one blue plugger, and one green plugger.  

I am hoping that Boris has some helpful info for me. I should probably check my email... 

3-29-2010

So its springtime finally, and time to give the rocco the attention it needs. I am bringing this thread back from the dead because I never really got all the answers I needed last year. it has been one problem after another, but this year I hope to start over with a clean slate.

Some of the problems I had last year were a blown head gasket, a leaky exhaust header, a sheared keyway on my crank timing gear, a burned vb921 chip and all sorts of other fun. 

I have installed a new head gasket, Ive planed flat my bad header and sealed the leak, Ive replaced the overheated vb921 with a BIP373, and Ive replaced the bad timing gear. 

I am building an all new msq file from scratch. reading the megamanual and setup guide voer and over again, and Im using the latest (at the moment) code. (MSII rev 2.89100)

last year the engine ran like crap. it would ping like crazy under heavy acceleration. - but I got good gas mileage. like 33 miles per gallon. go figure.

So to restate the stats on my build, I have a 2L 9a block, with a 1.8 16v head with a euro intake cam. I have a MS2 cpu, v3 board, and I am using the bip373 to drive my coil directly. 

I am lookng for some advice from ms2 users with naturally aspirated engines. I would love to browse over some vex files or msq's if anyones willing to share. Also, if anyone here us using the ms ecu to drive the coil directly, or managing dwell and stuff, I would like to see your settings for that as well.

thanks in advance 

p.s. this is the ve table we were using last year. it is the "fuel" map from the spitfireefi site. http://www.spitfireefi.com/fil...).vex

here is the spark map I grabbed from spitfireefi

http://www.spitfireefi.com/fil...).vex and just below, compare it to the map VW_NUT made last year (notice the low rpm advance as a makeshift idle control.)

Tonys

3-30-2010

well, so much for making any progress today. I got 4 hours of sleep and had to watch my girl till noon because our day care had the morning off. my fancy new timing light showed up, but it was ten minutes before I had to go to work. 

on the bright side, I got a slick new Equus Innova 5568 Pro Timing Light (with Tool Case)

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?...f3fe2

at 100$ it was a bit pricey, but it should last me forever..

3-31-2010

it lives!! popped the ecu back in the car tonight, and reset my timing and ignition settings. took a few tries to get it right,. and it started hard (as usual) but I got it running./ it doesnt seem to have the sputter that it was having before, but I wasnt able to drive it around to find out for sure. Im going to get lots of sleep tonight so I can be bright eyed tomorrow for some driving and logging...

p.s here is my "starter" msq file. it hasnt been tuned at all. 

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...3.msq

important info here

software: MSII Rev 2.89100

cpu: MS2

v3 board

bip373 driving the coil directly

2.0L 16v with euro intake cam

g60 26lb injectors at 43psi

4-1-2010

it runs! Like total crap!!!!!!  

I am getting so sick of this POS.. frigged around with it all morning and nothing I did made any difference.

it sputters like crazy under load. I dont have a knock sensor, so I cant tell if its knock, or a missfire. 

I swapped out the coil in hopes that the coil might be the problem... NOPE.

checked all my plugs, they are nice and even light tan. so it looks like its burning OK.

checked the compression on all 4 cyls, all come out good. ~180

I am so fed up with this thing, Im about ready to scrap it.

anyone feel like taking a glance at my log and looking for something I am missing?

here is one of the logs I made today. its like 350k.

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.msl

here is the msq file that was loaded at the time

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...3.msq

the thing stutters like crazy when accelerating under load.

any guidance would be appreciated

4-2-2010

LOL. thats a log file. you right click and save as. open it on your computer with megatune, and then open the msq file I linked. it looks a lot nicer that way 

yeah, there was a kink in my map hose. my ecu is hanging from my dash right now while I frig with it.

I made some more adjustments to it tonight. cracked open my tb a hair, and cranked my timing way up. gonna have another go at it tomorrow.

still runs like crap!

Tomorrow I'm going to reqire my o2 sensor to get a better power and ground. right now when I start the car the o2 sensor flickers on and off, and often goes into "error" mode.

4-3-2010

do believe my rpm signal is good. and my map signal appears to be fine also, looking at my latest logs. Im going to go make some new logs with my current maps and see what that gets me.

Ill post them here later.

got ion it today and fired it right up. I held my foot to the floor to flood clear it while starting, and let it crank a few turns before letting the gas out and it caught and fired. feathered the throttle for a minute or so to keep it alive, and then drove it around the block. I drive it quite aggressively, and it has plenty of power, but it still pings like crazy. I tried dialing the timing back in higher rpms and map, but just made it worse.

Ill upload my msq and log, but understand that my ignition map is really wild because I was trying to work some things out. 

here is my msq, http://www.angrymods.com/proje...y.msq

and my log, (2.5 megs)

http://www.angrymods.com/proje...1.msl

(right click, save as)

4-4-2010

Thanks for the advice JD. I was trying to follow some advice I got from ottowa g60 to set my trigger angle at 6*btdc. when I turn my timing light.

I guess I dont understand how setting the trigger angle to 70 degrees can make the spark happen at the right time. 

I am having a hard time understanding the megamanual. 

for starters, the manual says:

Trigger Offset (deg) (adv_offset in the code) is the advance before (or after) top dead center (BTDC) that the engine gets in it's signal from the engine's variable reluctor (VR) or Hall sensor. In many cases, this will be used as the 'base timing' for cranking as well as if the module loses its connection the ECU. 

this is confusing as hell. if I set that for 70, I dont think I want my spark happening at 60btdc when trying to start, which seems like this paragraph might suggest.

I was thinking that the each segment of the 16v dizzy "wheel" was equal. I just now measured the windows and walls on a spare 16v dizzy, and they are not equal. the walls are about 19mm and the windows are around 15.75mm. using a little geometry, that brings me to roughly 50* and 40* respectively. (using measured Chord lengths and 46mm Diameter) 

OK, so add 50* for the length of the wall, and 6*btdc that my distributor has been turned to after the window opens, thats 56*. not 70*,, help me out here...

Ignition Input Capture (ICIgnOption Bits 0-3) This is the ignition input signal event that should signal the base timing (Advance Offset) has been achieved. For example, the GM 7-pin HEI module takes the variable reluctor signal, and generates a positive going pulse when the base advance point is reached. In this case, the 'Rising Edge' is chosen, as the positive going transition is used as a trigger. 

(blank stare)

Cranking Trigger - changes requires an MS-II reboot This can be 'calculated', in the normal manner, or you can have the spark occur when the 'trigger return's, i.e. goes low. Trigger return essentially uses the module's base setting for cranking timing. 

so this is saying that when I turn the key it would try to fire the spark 70*btdc... or do I have that wrong? my settings are:

Trigger offset : 2.00

ignition input capture: falling edge

Cranking Trigger: trigger rise

your saying I should change that to 70, rising, and what? leave cranking trigger alone? or switch it to trigger return?

then what about my advance map? do I need to offset that whole thing by 70?

Megasquirt is hard... 

I made the base ignition options changes like JD suggested, set my trigger angle to 70, ign capture to rising edge, and crank trigger to trigger return. then I got the car runing and warmed up a bit, set a big block of my advance map to a nice even number, and then rna the trigger wizard to dial it in. I ended up with 75.7 for my trigger offset. OK.

I loaded up "Tonys spark map" and took it for a stroll around some back roads in town, and I found that if my timing isnt advanced enough, the car sputters and misses. if I wind the timing up enough to not sputter, it pings. 

I ended up with a wild timing map with very high advance settings at high kpa and rpms. around 50* for anything over 70kpa and 1800 rpms.

it pings like crazy, but doesnt sputter.

I'm about ready to take you up on that. I set my entire advance table to 30 degrees because I couldnt find where to set it to "fixed". then I used the settings you suggested, and used the trigger wizard and my adjustable timing light to get it dialed in, and ended up with 75.7. 

I didnt move my plugs around tho, because I hadnt got that piece of advice from you yet. it seems to run OK as it is, but like I said previously, if the timing isnt heavily advanced, it sputters, and it its advanced far enough to not sputter it pings.. 

I am learning very quickly, that ms2 is absolutely nothing like ms1. which is why Im having so much trouble with my ms2 setup.

question: how would a Euro intake cam affect my VE and/or AFR tables? would it affect my timing?

Note: I do not have an adjustable cam gear installed.

4-5-2010

Ill take another look at my dizzy tomorrow. 

I will say, It seems to start a lot better now.  

OK. I jsut checked my distributor and it is a low to high, (ground when no tooth, high when tooth in front of the sensor) but here is the thing, the high signal isnt very high. its only about 2.5 volts... Ive got a resistor jumpering between tach signal in and vref to bring the signal high, but is it possible its not high enough?

p.s. I am using a relay board...

4-6-2010

I'm powering it with 5v. out of fear that I might have fried it. Ill pull it and set it up for 12v instead. 

I do believe so. Ive checked and rechecked a thousand times now, but when I have it out to set it up for a 12v hall, Ill check it all again.

4-7-2010

, I have it out, and c30 and c12 are not installed, d1 and d2 are jumpered. 

I am trying to find information about running the hall sesor with 12v, and Im getting a bit comfused... the signal that comes OUT of the hall sensor, is a short to ground right?(and then open, which is why the signal out has a pullup resistor on it) so do I need to change r12 to 1k and do all the other mods if I want to run the hall at 12v?

or can I just hook the halls + to 12v instead of 5 and leave the rest alone?

4-8-2010

yeah, that is not quite the way mine is set up. xg1 is jumpered to xg2, tsel to optoout, tachselect to optoin, igbtin to js10. 

nothing connected to my proto area anywhere.

I dont know why I have it set this way, because I cant find the section of the instructiosn tyhat told me to do it this way.  

So now I am sitting down to go over my config yet again...

okay I might have found where I got my jumper configuration scheme from.

it was on the DIYautotune page, under "how to megasquirt your watercooled vw"

one thing tho, I am not using the bosche 139 module, im using direct coil control with the bip373 in thew ms ecu.

I dont have any pull up resistors on the baord either. I have a pull up resistor on my relay board between tach and vref...

I'm gonna get back to sewing my seats.. Ill wait till I get some responses before I go right in and make changes...

Also, according to the itmbos technotes on the subject... 

http://www.vintagewatercooleds...butor/

so you are saying, that I should wire it like this?

mk1vw: your setup has 5v from the proto area to optoin, but the instructions i just posted say to run the wire from 5v to the top of c30... ahh, I get it now, since d1 and 2 are both jumpered, that makes your mount point and the instructions exactly the same.

the instructions I posted above show a cap in c12. but I you guys just said it should be empty... got any thoughts on that?

mk1vw, how are you powering your hall?

both of you:

what resistor do you have for r12? if you are powering it from the 12v fuel pump relay, does that mean you need the 1k resistor in r12?

first, c12 is empty. has been all along, but the picutre I linked to previously shows it installed so I was confused. regardless, it continues to remain absent.

I followed the rest of the instructions given, went out and plugged it in and the car wont start at all now. no fire.. 

to go over my config again: 

I have a low to high 16v distributor.

I am powering it with 5v from the vref line off my TPS. 

I have a 470 ohm resistor in R12. 

I have no jumper between xg1 and 2.

I have a jumper wire from proto 5v to the top of c30.

I have another jumper wire between TachSelect and XG1

OptoOut is jumpered to tsel.

when I hooked it up to the car and turned the key, it cranked normally, and I got an rpm signal in megatune. but it wouldnt fire...

this is exactly how it is hooked up. unless one of my jumpers fell off, which is possible. Ill open it up again when I get home. 

do I have to make any changes in megasquirt now that Ive changed the wiring config on the ecu

you know, my hall sensor isnt like any of the ones listed. it IS shorted to ground when the tooth is in front of the sensor, but when the the window is in front of the sensor, its just floating... it doesnt short to positive.

I do belive they are different. dont know why.. - but I could be wrong..

4-9-2010

OK. I am stumped. I did the mods to the board as suggested, and I understand why they should be one.

the distributor I am using has a hall sensor that doesnt go 5v-ground-5v-ground, instead it goes ground-open-ground-open

so running 5v to opto in puts 5v to the anode side of the opto isolator, and then hooking xg1 to tachselect brings the opto isolators cathode out to the halls sensor output. so when the hall goes GROUND, the connection is complete and the opto isolators little internal LED can light up. when the hall goes OPEN the light goes out. 

Simple.

I disconnected the pullup resistor that I had connecting the signal to vref, because at this point that piece shouldnt be there. it would be like putting a resistor in place of c30. 

unfortunately, my car wont start.  

it was starting good before, and now it doesnt. I did manage to get it to fire up for just a sec, and then it backfired and died. 

I downloaded the megasquirt tooth analizer to see if I was getting tach signal. I am getting a very nice crisp clean tach signal.

http://www.microsquirt.info/tachref.htm

now that I have the ecu wired up this way, what settings do I need to change in order to get it to run?

I killed my battery while trying to get it to go so now its sitting on a tiny little charger trying to get some life into it.

so now that I have given it some thought, I am thinking that my hall signal going to MS are now the opposite of what they used to be. 

before it used to go low to high, so I configured my base ignition options for it. but now even tho the hall still goes ground when the tooth is in front of the sensor, inputs to MS are swapped so the signal the ecu gets is now High.. 

thoughts?

4-10-2010

I just got a secret weapon. my friend brandon just loaned me a digi-1 ecu from a rado. if I cant get MS to run the way I want it, I will just wire up the digi-1 box and be done with it.

Im not giving up yet tho..  

I got it running today. same settings as yesterday, today it just decided to work.  

so I brought it into the shop and tore it all apart. Im installing a new crank, arp rod bolts, main studs, main seals, clutch, and so on... 

worked on it from 8pm till 3:30 am... now im drinking a beer and going to bed.

4-29-2010

yeah actually, a week before dustoff I swapped out the 2.0 9a crank with a 1.8 kr/pl crank which has a shorter stroke and lowered my compression (and displacement) considerably. the lower compression fixed my pinging issue.  

I should explain something here. I didnt swap the crank with the intention of lower my compression. I swapped the crank because I was losing a ton of oil and I was sure the one that was in there was leaking around the main seals. Where I made the mistake however, was in chosing the crank out of my 1.8. you see, I was under the impression that the cranks were identical, and ti was only the bore that was different between the two engines. - I am sure I learned it corectly, but I just remembered it incorrectly.  

regardless, my tune isnt quite right still but at least it doesnt ping or sputter. As soon as I can find some time I'm gonna swap in a proper 2.0 crank and get to work on the tune, but for now at least I'm mobile and not leaking any oil. (not counting power steering fluid))

6-21-2010

FINALLY back from the dead!

the thread... and no, it still runs like crap. sometimes it just decides to miss like crazy and sputter and have no guts, then it just comes out of it and runs fine. I did a log and I cant detect any weird signal loss or fluctuation, and I am too busy to give it the attention it deserves right now. Ill get to it eventually.

5-16-2011

So Saturday I cracked open my head and checked the cams to see if I might have a sheared key on the cam sprockets. NOPE. but while I had them out, I replaced all my lifters. Put it all back together...

started first turn of the key. no frigging around. it runs!! Pretty damned good too!

now I can swap my proper crank back in and get back to work on tuning!

Note: if all of the trouble I was having was due to a bad lifter or two, then its no wonder it took me this long to figure it out. I still worry that while I was replacing the lifters that I may have just "fixed" something else entirely without realizing it....

Either way, I thought my troubles might be head related because the car allways started really really hard, and sometimes when I slowed down to pass through a toll or something, the car would sputter and run like crap when I tried to take off again. I could get it to "come out of it" by flooring it for a moment, then letting off the throttle and letting the car slow down a bit under engine brake, and then gradually getting back onto the throttle. this led me to believe that I might have a collapsed lifter or two... 

it is also possible that I may have just had a wiring fault. and that when the wire for one pair of injectors lost contact somewhere, the engine would be only running on two pistons. but this doesnt explain why it ALLWAYS started really hard... so I dont know.

What I DO know is, Ive started my car about 50 times since saturday, and it fires right up every single time!! 

OK, so here is my Latest MSQ file. this fires right up in the rocco, and after 10 seconds or so I can roll right out of the garage without stalling. Its a mess really, because of all the things we were trying to get it to run at all. 

BUT IT LIVES!!!!

http://www.angrymods.com/projects/me...tarts_good.msq

10-6-2011

I installed my ecu and relay board just above my fuse box. sort of below, and to the left of the instrument cluster. its a really tight fit, but its in there. 

in order to holt it in place I havre a sheet of plexiglass that I just tucked in between the fuse box and the ecu. if I didnt have a relay board it would fit way better.

12-13-2011

I dont know... maybe 1500? thats just a guess... could have been a lot less than that. but it was so long ago.

6-24-2012

thanks Pete. I havent even pulled my rocco out of storage yet this summer, bvut when I do I have a few more tricks up my sleeve. I think I have figured out why I have so much trouble with it running, (clogged cat) and I have a solution for the wimpy hatch struts that I want to post as well. 

all in good time

7-12-2013

you know, I thought I had it fixed but it still plagues me with issues. I literally parked it for two whole years and I am just getting around to looking at it again. I think my megasquirt ECU is fried and I am right now working on swapping in a digifant 1 ecu. lol. just working on sorting out the wiring for it. 

I would love to check out your msq files and whatnot. what did you end up going with? ms1,2 board? Etc